Anabolic steroids, bodybuilding discussion forums. - SteroidologyPlease provuron or register. Hiwhat do you think of this pre contest cycle? I would do it like this: Also, I might run prop for proviron dosage pre contest after the show, just because coming off everything right after a diet can sometimes be harsh Necessary, no, but it doesn't hurt IMO.
Pre contest cycle
Please login or register. Hi , what do you think of this pre contest cycle? I would do it like this: Also, I might run prop for wks after the show, just because coming off everything right after a diet can sometimes be harsh Necessary, no, but it doesn't hurt IMO.
Could someone use HCG during it all and still produce kids? Thanks for the input AJ , What about the proviron? What do you think of Halo , would I need it with the stanazol , var and tren or is that over kill? Ill start HCG the day after the show and run it for 3 weeks post the last prop shot followed by clomid I think the cycle looks great as far as results. Now could you get nearly the same look and spend a lot less? Well, maybe a little inject winny at the end hehe. I see no need for Halo.
Sten is a product that was actually replaced by Tren. Halo is very harsh on the system. Dont you think 0. Bumb that up to 1mg in the final week with the Nolvadex should work like a charm. Also ive dropped the proviron and exchnaged that for a high dose of stanazol. Thank you every one for you input.
Luv 2 hurt - Ive always taken Nolvadex the last few days. I find it drys me up. Just in the final week. I dont use it for PCT purposes.
The Mastron im using is enanthate so cutting it out in the final week shouldnt be an issue? Luv2Hurt on April 04, , On another note and this is to AJ, I see that Dave P does not like nolva for guys, recomends clomid instead for pct.
I thought the 2 were very similar? But they must be different to some degree. I know clomid is supossed to be a stimulater of GnRH but nolva supposedly does the same. Clomid claims this more though maybe for marketing reasons. Aj you dont think the acne is just becuase your using it post cycle? It might not be the Clomid.
I always thought Clomid was better PCT at re-stimulating natural test production and the nolva was a better anti-estrogen. William Llewellyn has written some good stuff about Nolva vs. Do a google search. Basically he makes the case that Nolva is better for PCT. Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation By William Llewellyn I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use in the bodybuilding world anyway ; as an anti-estrogen, an HDL good cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound.
Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss.
But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
Clomid and Nolvadex I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators SERMs with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties.
This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone.
LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Studies conducted in the late 's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels 1. Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts oligospermia.
For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs.
Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released.
The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or day levels. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone.
That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex. The Estrogen Clomid The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds.
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary.
To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 2.
In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol.
Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture. Conclusion To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis is concerned.
This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH.
This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation. Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics.
Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research 3 , is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well.
Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time. In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Fertil and Steril 29 2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.
Am J Physiol Feb; 2: The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 Theme created by Egad Community.
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